How Career Services Can Support Students in a Tough Job Market

John Koelliker:

I do empathize with students. It’s a tough market, but also AI is turning things very unhuman in certain ways, or it just feels fake at times. Remember that as career centers, and as students, that at the end of the day, getting a job, and working, and this whole process is a very human process still. To keep the humanity while you’re also trying to do all the right things, and trying to follow the instructions, and remember that that’s how hiring decisions are still made. This is very human based.

Meredith Metsker:

Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the Career Everywhere Podcast. I’m your host, Meredith Metsker. And today I am joined by John Koelliker, the co-founder, and CEO of Leland. Thank you for being here, John.

John Koelliker:

Yeah, thanks for having me. Looking forward to it.

Meredith Metsker:

Yeah, I am too. And I am excited to talk to you today about how career services teams can support students in this really tough job market that we’re in right now. I know this is super top of mind for a lot of the folks listening to this podcast. And I know you see a lot of trends in your work through Leland around what’s working in this market, and what’s not. So, we’ll get into all those details here in just a minute, but before I get into the questions, John, is there anything else you would like to add about yourself, your background, or your role there at Leland?

John Koelliker:

Yeah, I’m really excited to chat with you about this topic. It’s something we think about all the time. I can give just a quick overview. My background, I’ve been building Leland for the last five years. We’re a platform that connects people to students, and recent grads, and some experienced professionals as well, to experts who can help them navigate these tough job markets, whether they’re applying to schools, or applying to jobs, or upskilling in some way. And then we also work directly with career centers as well to help amplify their efforts in supporting students. This is a topic we think about all the time. We love partnering with career centers. We love partnering with students, and we feel for them, and hope to help them in any way we can.

Meredith Metsker:

And you’re based in Utah, and I’m based in Colorado, so we’re neighbors, y’all.

John Koelliker:

Love it. Yeah, it’s great. Mountain West.

Meredith Metsker:

Yeah. West Coast, best coast, right? No shade to our East Coast listeners. All right. Well, before I get into the more specific questions, John, I do want to kick us off with a question I ask all of our guests here on the podcast. That’s what does Career Everywhere mean to you?

John Koelliker:

Yeah, I love this question. As I reflected on this, knowing this is the Career Everywhere Podcast, I think the way that I would summarize it is an outcome focus. And what I mean by that is accountability, and ownership over what all trying to deliver for students, which is help them land jobs, or help them get an education, but it’s a layer across everything. Classes, clubs, projects, internships, alumni best base. Whatever the school is doing, it’s a focus on the ultimate goal, and all of us feeling that accountability to students who are our customers, and people that we’re trying to support. So, I think it’s really that outcome focus.

Meredith Metsker:

Yeah, I love that. And as you, and I both know, outcomes is a very timely topic these days in terms of higher ed, and trying to prove the ROI of a degree, and all that conversation right now.

John Koelliker:

I was just going to add, it’s so timely, and so important, yet it’s amazing how many activities happen on a campus that don’t seemingly tie back to that, despite it being the most important thing for students, and becoming more important, and proving those outcomes as an institution.

Meredith Metsker:

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think back to my own college experience, I was in the marching band, and the pet bands. And at the time, I don’t think I quite understood the connection between what I was learning in band, and the leadership skills, just all these real life skills that I was learning. I didn’t realize I could connect those to post-graduation. I think that’s a great thing about what the coaches do through Leland, what career centers do is helping students connect the dots because it’s so important.

John Koelliker:

Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s a great point. And it is about a rich experience. It doesn’t have to be everything is just focused on internship, internship, or get a job this, or get a job that, but it’s reminding people, and helping them see that we’re building this rich education, and experience because we want you to progress. We want you to leave better off in these specific ways, and that’s why we exist.

Meredith Metsker:

Yeah, that makes sense. And I think that’s a good segue into our topic today, which is again, how career centers can support students in this tough job market. So, to start us off with the lay of the land, since you work with so many students, can you share your perspective on what the job market is like right now, and what is making it so difficult for college students, and recent grads?

John Koelliker:

Yeah. And everyone feels this. So, especially to you listeners, it’s probably, I’m preaching to the choir, but it’s absolutely the toughest job market I’ve ever seen. And certainly in decades, I think there’s a number of forces that are sort of converging all at the same time. And you actually do need to acknowledge that it’s not just AI, it’s not just a macro pullback. It’s a combination of a lot of factors. So, I think you did have this hiring boom pre, and during COVID that accelerated on campus hiring, and hiring really across the entire job market. Then there was the big macro pullback initially that was then amplified by a lot of AI updates And the AI trend is only accelerating, and you’re starting to see actual automation of entry level work, which is scary, and is important to call out because we see this in hiring managers that we talk to, and other employers that are literally saying, “Yeah, we have an intern right now, but we expect that this job will be done by AI.”

Now, the really important thing, we’ll get into this is, so what do you do about it, and where are new grads are actually better positioned in the job market than they’ve ever been before? Which I actually think, because I actually think there is some really good news in all of this, but I think it’s important to sit with the fact that it is hard. There are certain pockets where it is especially hard, and then there are still pockets of opportunity. And so what do we do about it? And we can spend more time there.

Meredith Metsker:

I’m curious, just kind of based going on what you just said, where would you say it is toughest right now? And then where are you seeing more areas of opportunity?

John Koelliker:

There’s certain industries. I think tech is one that we track very closely. And in some parts of tech, both startups, and big tech, you’ve seen a hiring of new grads pull back by 25% in a couple years, and then another 25%, so 50% back from its peak. And so tech has been absolutely hurt. I think AI has hurt other industries like consulting, or other traditionally popular hiring tracks for, or I guess career paths for students. And so they are just hiring less, or they’re pushing out start dates, and that has continued.

And so you see, I think that the tech, and consulting, and kind of these traditional paths, especially for students that are trying to earn a lot of money coming out of school in more generalist roles. So, I would say that the generalist business role is very, very hard right now. And when you talk to students that say, “Oh yeah, I’m studying business. I want to work in business.” We’ll talk about this a little bit, but trying to understand what that means because the generalist approach is just not working like it used to. And that area has been especially hit hard.

Meredith Metsker:

It seems like you kind of have to specialize in something, or find a lane, find a niche, or something a little bit earlier than even just 10, or 15 years ago.

John Koelliker:

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Meredith Metsker:

Okay. Before I move on, are there any other trends you’re noticing in the job market that maybe career centers might not see from campus?

John Koelliker:

I think that the trends that I would call out, which is where we spend a lot of time is the so what, where are the pockets of opportunity here? And I think in a pullback, in a market where there’s fewer jobs to be had around the table, you have to be really thoughtful about what sticks in a company. And it almost takes an understanding of how a company runs in order to understand that. And if you break it down to its core, you have a group of people that are building the thing that’s going to be sold, right? You have the builders, or the folks creating the product, and then you have the people that are doing the selling. And so you have sales, and marketing. And then I think even within those types of buckets, you have roles that younger people, or new grads are actually better positioned to do than a more experienced person.

And so what I would say is we see a ton of opportunity in content creation, in marketing, in social media. I can’t tell you how many executives are just begging for someone to come, and help them with their content strategy. There’s not a lot of great people out there. And if you had a pocket of folks that understood social media, and content creation, and SEO, and this go to-market engine, there’s immediate ROI on that role. And so you really have to figure out what is the role that I can show up on day one, or my first 90 days, and prove value to the business because traditional roles like let’s take a data analyst role, which historically you’d say, “Oh, data analyst requires some technical skill.” Not a lot of people know how to write SQL, really safe. Well, now it turns out AI is really good at writing SQL, and being a data analyst.

And I think it gets back a little bit to like, well, companies have never really just needed a lot of data analysts just because they wanted a data analyst. They needed revenue, and they needed data analysts to help them figure out where the opportunity is. But if something else is helping them figure out where the opportunity is, then they still need to go get it, and you cut it to the things that really matter, which is building, and selling, or marketing. And so I think the flocking to things that are AI enablement of the core, so operations, or data roles where someone understands how to build agents that do those things, which is sometimes hard for students to have right out the gate. So, I would gravitate more towards marketing, go to market types of roles, sales roles. For the technical side, I think being an AI native developer, you just can’t hire enough of them right now. So, anyways, those are some of the pockets of opportunity we’re seeing.

Meredith Metsker:

Yeah, that’s really helpful context. And I was even thinking as a marketer myself, something I like to tell college students all the time, is when it comes to content creation, or those kinds of things, you don’t have to wait to be employed to start practicing those skills. There are so many avenues for creating content these days that are free, accessible. So, just go out, start creating, start experimenting, and you’ll be building those skills alongside your college education.

John Koelliker:

It’s a great point. Both sides of that equation, you don’t need permission to build a product, you don’t need permission to start creating content, or marketing. It’s harder to just start being a data analyst out of nowhere, or picking on data analysts. Some of those operational roles in the middle, or just being an FP&A analyst. It’s hard to just do that out of thin air those supporting roles. Well, turns out the ones that are most in demand are the ones you don’t need permission to do. And that’s really good news. So, I think you’re absolutely right. Just get started.

Meredith Metsker:

So, I am curious, what are you seeing on the employer side that’s shaping this market? Any trends, any new things there?

John Koelliker:

I think so. In any type of market that gets tighter, employers get to be pickier because they get flooded. Now you also have this dynamic where AI agents are applying for candidates at alarming rates. And so we posted a job, and it had 5,000 applications within 24 hours, which is obviously a problem, because we’re not going to be able to review all those. We know that most of them were just applied to through an AI agent. So, that’s what employers are feeling. They’re feeling the pressure of how do I sift through this noise, and figure out who’s real, and who actually cares about my company, and didn’t just have AI customize the application to make it seem like they care about my company? And so you’re seeing a lot of employers flock to network even more. I mean, network has always mattered, but it matters, especially when cold job applications basically just become untenable. And so flock to network, I think flocking to… And even in person interviewing, because they now know that there’s these interview cheaters that you can have on the camera. So, being in person just matters a lot.

In fact, I actually got a cold email from a student that goes to a university 30 minutes down the road, BYU, last week who said, “Hey, I have this opportunity that I vibe coded a product, and have an idea for how I think you guys could make some more money. Would love to walk you through it if you have a minute in person.” And it was a well-written email. It was very much something I care about, which is moving my business forward, or whatever. And he came in person, and walked me through it, and he got 30 minutes with me. I introduced him to five more people, and now he’s in our process for our interview. It was the fastest way for him to cut through the noise. So, I think you have to understand the noise that the employers are experiencing. They are raising the bar. We’re seeing some weird dynamics where students are almost redshirting a year. It’s like they’re academic redshirting, or professional red shirting.

So, they get another year of internships, and experiences, which is hard because then employers expect that when they’re like, “Oh, I have someone that has five, or six internships, or I have someone that has one, or two, this person will be able to hit the ground running, I’ll lean there.” And so I think they’re demanding that. And then I think we’ve basically put a filter, and we see this from a lot of the hiring managers we work with, young people have such an advantage with AI because they grew up with these tools, and so the most AI native, and impactful employees at our company right now are less than one years out of school. They’re like interns, or six months post-school. So, we need that from that workforce. And so you’re seeing employers require that as well in the hiring process.

Meredith Metsker:

That made me think of another question because it sounds like Leland is very open to hiring recent grads, kind of open to that younger experience, and more of that youthful knowledge. But as we know, not every company is like that. Some companies just don’t even want to take a chance on recent grads. Is there any advice you would give to students, or to career coaches working with students on how to identify companies who might be open to younger employees, or recent grads?

John Koelliker:

It’s a great question. I mean, you do see that those companies tend to show up on campuses. They tend to have hired the people one, or two years above you. You will get certain companies that are maybe consumer oriented, or need a really good marketing, or content motion because they want to be in with what’s popular in college happens to be center of culture in a lot of ways, at least in America. And so I think trying to find companies that care about that, you’re going to get less of that from a old school, deep enterprise SaaS, maybe they don’t need that as much. So, I think that’s one way to think about it, but I think there’s more that want to hire new grads than I think we all appreciate. They just often don’t know where to go, or how to do it, or how to find the right people because they’re also getting flooded.

And so I think that sometimes it just takes a hungry young person to show them why they need to be, show them why they need to hire them. I have a hard time finding the right people, even though I know I want to hire young people, or I want to hire new grads.

Meredith Metsker:

So, you probably love getting an outreach email like the one you got from the BYU student like, “Yes, thank you.”

John Koelliker:

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. You’re making it easier for me to cut through the noise, and show me that you want it, and a lot of the other softer things that still matter a lot.

Meredith Metsker:

Yeah, I think that is a great segue to my next question, which is based on everything that you’re seeing through your work with Leland, again, you work with tens of thousands of students. What strategies are just proving most successful for students, and new grads in this market?

John Koelliker:

The first thing I’ll say here, I’ll give you maybe four, or five suggestions that I’ve kind of crystallized, but I’ll tie the first one back to the theme of this podcast, which is Career Everywhere. I think students need to, you don’t want students to feel like rushed into a job, but you do want them to understand as early as possible that that is what you want for them. You want them to find something fulfilling. And so what you don’t want is for them to wait till they’re a junior, and then pick something out of thin air, and then have to go down it because then they don’t have time to actually explore. So, I think the first strategy is be hypothesis driven early, as early as you can. And what that allows you to do is go a little bit deeper than just kind of the surface level, start to talk to people, start to get internships, start to get exposure, start to build some level of like, “Yeah, I am good at this job even though I’m a student.” And I don’t like it, and I’m going to switch.

But the good news is because I’m only my second semester freshman year, and I already ruled out two jobs, that’s great. I’m getting closer. And so by the time maybe I land second semester of my sophomore year, I have already found something that I’m really excited about, and I’m starting to get internships in that field, and I have two, or three years to start to do that. And I think sometimes in an attempt to protect, or to not rush our students into anything, we actually do the opposite, which is don’t even address it for two years. And then at the very end we say, “You got to pick a job. You got to figure out what you’re going to do.” And then in turn, they actually end up rushing it. So, I think being comfortable being hypothesis driven early, picking a lane, and trying to go as deep as you possibly can will only serve you better when you’re recruiting in your junior, or senior year.

Meredith Metsker:

Yeah.

John Koelliker:

The second thing… Oh, sorry, I don’t know if you want to-

Meredith Metsker:

Actually, that kind of reminds me, are you familiar with life design, like the life design thing on college campuses?

John Koelliker:

Yeah, exactly.

Meredith Metsker:

A lot of what you’re describing, it’s like what they call prototyping, basically.

John Koelliker:

Yeah, exactly. And I think there’s classes that you’ll see schools introduce to try to build that out. But I would say generally the sentiment in college is, “Oh, you’re a freshman, just enjoy it. You don’t need to worry about it.” And while that is like, we do want them to enjoy their college experience, of course, I think always having in the back of their head, “No, here is what we should be working on together.” And you are at an advantage by getting started early, and having some hypotheses, and being comfortable taking steps towards one of those things, and closing some doors. The second thing that I, and we’ve talked about this a little bit, but I would say is aim where the demand is real, talk to people, find out what they can’t hire enough of, they can’t find. If you were to go talk to people here, and instead of saying, “Hey, I’m really interested in this role,” ask them, “What are you having a hard time staffing? Where are you finding?”

And I think obviously this is where the career center can also be really helpful because they can start to connect those dots, and then obviously services, or tools like Leland, or other offerings can help actually prepare you. But I think the really understanding where the demand is really valuable. By doing the first two things, you can do the third, which is start to build proof that you have some level of skill, because gone are the days where we can just hire students that don’t know anything, and just train them on the job. I wish hiring managers had the patience to do that, but in a world where they have a lot of options, and students, they’re going to pick the ones that have some level of proof that they can do the job. The fourth thing, we talked about this a little bit, but show up in person.

Proximity just matters so much. And I think you can start with calls, and I think leaning into the alumni base matters a lot, but I think showing up at events, sending emails, and saying, “Can I come by this afternoon, or next week, and talk you through this?” In-person trust just creates so much momentum, especially in a world where there’s 5,000 AI agents applying to every job. So, play that to your superpower, or to your advantage. The last thing I would say is, and I know everyone’s kind of freaking out, and trying to figure out what this actually means, but you have to be AI native in this job market. And I think this is going to be… It’s already pretty clear, and I think that we are going to get hit in the face with it throughout this year, and probably the coming three years, how important that skillset is, and how much of an advantage students have in that.

And so there’s no excuse because they’re just so much more used to experimenting with these technologies they’ve grown up with them. And so figuring out how do you use that technology, not just to be good at ChatGPT, but to use it to produce outcomes that are going to matter. So, if you connect all of these, you said go talk to the manager, or CEO, and say, “Hey, what are you having a hard time hiring for?” “Oh, I’m having a really hard time hiring for content creation.” “Great. Well, let me go work on that problem for you. I’m going to come back, and I’m going to show you this content engine that I’ve built powered by AI. I would love to come, and intern, and actually help implement this.” I couldn’t tell you how many… And pay me 20 bucks an hour, pay me 15 bucks now. You don’t have to pay me that much, but let me prove that I can actually add value. Those types of things just go so far. So, anyways, those are some of the ideas.

Meredith Metsker:

Yeah, those are all really great. You mentioned one example of a question a student might be able to ask a hiring manager, “What are you having trouble staffing right now?” Are there any other questions that you have seen work really well for students, or maybe questions you have gotten that have really stuck with you?

John Koelliker:

I mean, ultimately you’re trying to understand what do they care about? What is keeping them up at night? Because when your cold email slides in amidst the sea of lots of others, you just don’t want to be one more that’s like, “Hey, can I just hop on a call with you, and get your advice, and mentorship?” Even though it would be amazing if everyone responded to those, and not saying that they shouldn’t respond to those, but if a cold email goes to someone, and hits something that they care about. So, I think asking questions in, and around that matter. So, what are the roles you’re having a hard time hiring for? What are the biggest priorities you have in your company right now? And you can ask entry level people that, and then you can start to say, “Okay, I’m starting to triangulate what matters to this company.

Now I’m going to start to connect with the hiring managers, and I’ll have more context, and more of a strategy when I talk to them, and how I might fit in.” So, those are some of the things that I would think about. And then I guess the other thing is I would ask about how they’re using AI, and if there’s anything that they might be able to help with, what are the priorities related to AI? Because every hiring manager, and CEO is feeling the pressure, and feeling that just the amount of trying to keep up, and students just have an advantage there. So, they’re more willing to trust a student that has something to say when it comes to AI. So, I don’t know, those are a few thoughts.

Meredith Metsker:

And I loved your suggestion earlier of not only asking those questions to get that information, but then telling them, “I’m going to work on something. Can I reach out to you? Can I get your card so I can email you my idea later?” That’s so smart. And also for students listening, if you enjoy that process of figuring out your audience, and developing something, and then selling it to them, you might love marketing, and sales, or product management, and product development.

John Koelliker:

Totally. And I think, Meredith, maybe the last thing I’d say on that goes back to the comment you made, which is be great in whatever you want to do without… Don’t ask for permission to be great. Just start doing it. I think in this type of market, high, high agency is what wins, right? That’s what’s going to show up. And in many ways, the way we even think about hiring for content creators is to go see who’s already creating content. It’s not necessarily to just say, who wants to learn how to do this? It’s to say who’s already doing it, because if you’re already doing it, then we can teach you how to do it even better, or the way that we want to do it. And so I think that will turn more heads probably than anything.

Meredith Metsker:

Yeah, absolutely. And it’s really a win-win this scenario because if you come up with something, you share it with the employer, they love it, great. Maybe you get an internship, or you get an entry level job offer. If they’re not into it, you still have an example for your portfolio. Write it up.

John Koelliker:

Absolutely. Yeah. I think there’s something really powerful about learning how to create an audience, learning how to make money on the internet, even if it’s something small. In college, I started a little baseball company, and-

Meredith Metsker:

That’s awesome.

John Koelliker:

…these baseballs, we ended up selling baseballs, and we actually ended up getting them into Nordstrom, and J. Crew, and a bunch of toy stores, and started as a little side thing. And it was like, wow, I can actually just make some baseball in my dorm room, and sell it to people. And now my younger brothers that are in college are selling it on TikTok, and they’ve learned so much doing that. So, I think you just learn a lot by trying things, and not waiting to just try to get someone to give you a chance. You can do things, especially during school. It’s almost like you’re on borrowed time in school. It’s your time to kind of experiment.

Meredith Metsker:

Yeah. I love what you were saying earlier. Just you don’t need permission. You don’t need someone to assign you something. I talk to journalism students at my alma mater all the time because that’s what I studied. And I always tell them, I’m like, “You don’t need to be interning for a newspaper. You don’t need an editor to assign you a story. Go out, find the story, do the interviews, write it yourself, publish it on your own blog.”

John Koelliker:

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Start a Substack, or a Beehive, whatever it is.

Meredith Metsker:

There’s so many avenues.

John Koelliker:

Yeah, exactly. And I think in a world where you can’t get a job, the surest way to get a job is to make your own. At the end of the day, just do it. And that is obviously easier said than done, but I think having time in school, and even resources in school to help you explore that, and to make that okay, to explore. There’s a really cool program called SandBox at some universities, I think is at maybe five, or six universities where they give 12 credits of college credit a semester to just build a company, just build anything. They pair you up with two other students, and they just start working on things, and they give you a little trophy when you make your first dollar, and then they have some little milestones, and they’re making it an academic experience, but they’re trying to equip the next generation of entrepreneurs.

And I think in this type of market, entrepreneurship might be a really, really good option. And I can’t hire enough ex entrepreneurs. I love hiring people that have had to do it all themselves. So, I think it sort of all kind of comes back to if you’re trying to get a job, that might be a good way to do it anyways.

Meredith Metsker:

Yeah. That program is the perfect example of career everywhere.

John Koelliker:

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Meredith Metsker:

Okay. Well, John, knowing what you know about the job market, and what strategies are working well right now, what would be your advice for career services professionals who want to support students in navigating this job market?

John Koelliker:

It’s a great question. And we think about it a lot, especially with our career center partners today. I think that career centers, what we see from the best career centers is they understand where they’re great, and they understand where they’re not as great. And I think in this type of market, that becomes exceptionally important. They know when to lean on alumni, they know when to lean on faculty, and like the curriculum, and they try to infuse programming there, and they know when to lean on other parties that can be especially valuable. And I think what that looks like is saying, “Okay, in this job market, we need to make sure everyone, everyone has a level of AI fluency because it’s just too important.” We need to make sure that we are helping people start to have career conversations as early as they possibly can, and not be afraid that we’re going to scare someone, or that we’re going to put too much pressure on a freshman.

What we don’t want is we don’t want three years into their career to say, “Why did I do this?” You want to answer those questions early as much as you can. I think doubling down on internships where you can, of course, there’s some schools that do a really good job of unpaid on campus internships where you can still get some credit, and get some experience. Others, of course, that have made it part of the programming. I think there’s a lot of focus on, let’s get your resume in a good place, and let’s do some basic mock interview. And I think that those things can be valuable, but I think that there’s so many steps before that. And I know career centers are trying to get in front of students, and they don’t always show up, but I think that’s signal, right? I think that’s important because it should help them inform the resources they provide because there are some times where they offer things, and they do show up.

And so you’ve got to listen to your customer in a sense. Listen to what they want, listen to what you’re learning from them. And bringing in amazing alumni, and strengthening that the sort of support base, and that network becomes creating those in person opportunities so that people don’t have to show up here in person, I think matters a ton. So, they don’t have to be expert in everything, but they need to know where they are experts, and they’re experts in understanding their students, and they’re not experts in every industry that’s changing every five minutes because of this new crazy world. And so they got to bring people to the campus that can actually be that frontlines perspective.

Meredith Metsker:

It reminds me of something that Christine Cruzberagara of Handshake said on an episode, gosh, last year, or now. And she was talking about the future of career services, and what might be kind of their biggest play, or a biggest benefit. And those in person relationships, and those networking relationships was something that she mentioned. It’s like in the age of AI, and so many other things being automated, you can’t automate that in person interaction that you were talking about, those in person interviews, bringing an employer to campus in person, facilitating those conversations. Yeah. Like you said, like she said, I think that’s just going to be even more relevant in the coming years.

John Koelliker:

Christine’s a good friend, and we’ve talked a lot about this, and the career center of the future, and what would that look like? And I think that every attempt to disrupt the university model that doesn’t care about the experience, the human connection experience falls short. There’s always better, faster, cheaper, but there’s something special about the connection you get. I mean, I met my wife at school. I went to college football games. There’s so many amazing things that touch on the experience. And so leaning harder into that, especially in a world of AI when there’s more that’s digital, more that’s fake, and more of these AI applications, I think that that to me feels like exactly where I would be doubling down. So, anyways, yeah, it’s interesting.

Meredith Metsker:

And like you, I met my spouse in college as well in marching band during band camp classic.

John Koelliker:

Hey, yeah, it’s awesome. It’s great. I love that.

Meredith Metsker:

Okay. Well, sort of on that note, John, if you were running a higher ed career center today, what would you double down on, or is there anything you would deprioritize?

John Koelliker:

A lot of the stuff that I think we’ve talked about, I mean, I think I would say I would double down on a day one culture. Welcome to school. These are our goals. We’re going to tell you them, and they’re going to show up, and I’m going to try to infuse them, not just when you touch the career center, when you walk through the doors, and are in the career center, it’s not like that’s the only time you talked about your career. We’re going to be everywhere, and we’re going to be everywhere from day one because it’s just too late. And it’s hard because you have students that are in the junior, senior year that are like, “I need a job.” And so they can take a lot of the time. But I think getting really strong day one culture around, this is the goal, and here’s our vision for you, and the things you need to do now, because it will make your life so much better down the road.

So, I think a day one culture, AI fluency, deep in person focus with alumni, practitioners, I would absolutely be leaning into experts that understand all of these different industries. And I would be very careful about, I would lean into the things that our career center is exceptional at. And it’s just going to be really hard for our career center to be up on the latest Claude code practice. We’re just not going to do that, but that might actually be really important to landing a job. And so I would want to have a playbook for having experts, whether that’s through Leland, or some other resource, or alumni base, so that we can actually have the latest, and greatest on these different topics. And then I think I would say that maybe the last area is, and this is where you get beyond the career center, but I think trying to get alignment at the very top of how important outcomes are in everything that we do, because it connects ultimately back to enrollment, and back to the entire… That’s what’s hard about universities is there’s so many parties.

But at the end of the day, marketing is going to have a much easier job if at the very end of the funnel, people are able to reach the goals that they have. And so I would be an aggressive champion of outcomes first, and career everywhere across the whole university, and be comfortable innovating. It’s obviously easier said than done in large organizations like universities. But I think that type of leadership, we see that. I mean, you probably see that in career centers where you just have someone that doesn’t just want to do their job, and be nice in the career center. They want to drive outcomes, and change the game, and they’re proactive. And so I think that’s something I would be doing.

Meredith Metsker:

That ties into something we’ve been talking a lot about lately here at uConnect, which is this kind of engagement to outcomes pipeline, specifically that career services engagement is one of the, I guess, most prevalent leading indicators of student outcomes. Outcomes is a lagging indicator. By the time that data comes out, you can’t change it for the students it represents, but career services engagement is something that you can influence in real time every day. So, yeah, that’s a concept we’re talking a lot about, too. It’s like career services has a huge impact on outcomes. So, if you don’t have a seat at the table, drag one. Drag one into that room.

John Koelliker:

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It’s like it’s never been more important, the career services than it is today, and it’s only going to get more important.

Meredith Metsker:

I think more, and more presidents, and provosts are seeing that, but I think there’s still work to be done for sure. I wanted to go back to something you were saying earlier about the picking a lane earlier, trying to narrow things down a little bit, even if it’s just knowing what you don’t want versus what you do want. From your perspective, how can career centers help students narrow their interests earlier without pushing them into something prematurely? Because I know that’s something our audience thinks about a lot.

John Koelliker:

It’s a great question. I think that there’s a really important distinction between a career hypothesis, and a career commitment. And what I think is absolutely necessary is to have your career hypothesis always. And it’s never too early to have a career hypo… I mean, I was going to be an MLB baseball player when I was a kid. That was my career hypothesis, and then it evolved. Maybe I was going to be a fireman at one point, and maybe I was going to be a dentist like my dad, or whatever. So, there’s always career hypotheses, and it doesn’t necessarily mean you have to just do it forever. But what a hypothesis can do is it starts to help you get interested. It starts to help you talk to people, get exposure. And so to me, I think the pick a lane is really more about having a career hypothesis always, and have it early, and be disproving, or proving it as you go.

And I think about my own journey, and I got to college, and someone was like, “Oh, you should look into investment banking, or consulting,” which is, I don’t even know what either of those things are. But I was like, “Okay, great. I’m going to pick investment banking.” And I went on a trip to New York with other students to investment banking, investment banks, and I was like, “Oh, I definitely don’t want to do this.” But it was really great. I got to look really close at it. And then from there, there was an adjacent opportunity in a venture capital firm. And I was like, “Oh, that was really interesting. Let’s go invest in startups, and do an internship in that.” I was like, “Oh, I don’t know if I love investing.” And I moved to actually operating, and building startups. And then eventually I found, oh, I actually want to just go operate, or build tech companies.

And so being interested in investment banking as a sophomore wasn’t a commitment that I was going to do it for the rest of my life, but I’m really glad I found that as a sophomore, because I would’ve found it as a junior, I probably would’ve had to just start recruiting. And so I think that the mistake is just thinking that it’s a forever choice when it’s not better to pick a hypothesis early, test it, and kind of start to disprove things. Learning what you don’t want to do is really great, because then once you can shut that door, then you can say, “Well, great. When the flashing lights come on for that, I’ve learned I don’t want to do it, and I’m okay with that, and I want to do one of these things.”

Meredith Metsker:

Yeah. And you can always evaluate what it was about that experience that you didn’t enjoy, and use that information to try something else. And like you said, hopefully it helps students feel less pressure. You don’t have to figure out what you want to do. Just start with figuring out what you don’t want to do.

John Koelliker:

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Meredith Metsker:

It’s like for me, I started college. I majored in English. I thought I wanted to be a book publisher, go live in New York City, whatever. And I got into my English classes, and I just hated them. I was just suffering when the teacher would say, “Okay, I want you to get into groups, and talk about the symbolism. What do you think the author meant?” I was like, “I don’t care at all. This is not my thing. I see other people are passionate about it. I’m not.” And so I remember I left one class, and I went right to the registrar’s office, and I changed my major to journalism because what did I like about English is like the storytelling, interesting people. I was like, “I want to focus on that side of it.”

John Koelliker:

Exactly. You had a hypothesis, you disproved part of it, but you proved the other part of it, and I think it got you closer. It’s the paralysis of options of, “Ah, I could do this. I could do that.” And that’s just what kills you.

Meredith Metsker:

Yeah. It’s like me when I get on Netflix, there’s too many choices. I don’t know what to do.

John Koelliker:

Exactly. That’s right. Yeah. Just click a button.

Meredith Metsker:

Yeah. Yeah. Just start with something.

John Koelliker:

Yeah, start ruling them out.

Meredith Metsker:

Well, John, is there any other advice you would give to students who are feeling discouraged right now, or to the career coaches who are trying to help these students who are feeling discouraged?

John Koelliker:

It’s hard. It’s not your fault. The market is hard, and there’s still hope, and you don’t want discouragement to lead to not trying, or not doing anything. And so I think that’s where I would say you can acknowledge that it’s tough, and then take action. You don’t need permission. We’ve talked about this a lot today. You don’t need permission to just start doing things, build something, publish your first story on Substack, write something on LinkedIn, or Twitter, try to build an audience, whatever it is, just start taking action, start talking to people, show up in person, just create momentum wherever you can. And one week at a time, things will start to open up. It’s just moving in a direction opens up lots of opportunities. And then the last thing I would say is just careers are long. It’s a journey, right? This time is stressful.

It’s changing a lot. The whole economy is going through it, not just them. In a lot of ways, they’re more malleable than someone that is going through it 20 years into their career, and their job’s being rewritten. So, there’s some advantages to being young, and lean into those, and also recognize that it’s a long journey, and to be patient with yourself, and stick with it because there’s lots of time to figure it out.

Meredith Metsker:

And your first job doesn’t necessarily have to lock you into a career. You can pivot.

John Koelliker:

Totally. Yeah, exactly.

Meredith Metsker:

Okay. Well, John, is there anything else you would like to add before I start closing us out?

John Koelliker:

No, I think this has been a great conversation. I do empathize with students. I think it’s a tough market, but also, and I think AI is turning things very unhuman in certain ways, or it just feels fake at times. And I think remember that as career centers, and as students, that at the end of the day, getting a job, and working, and this whole process is a very human process still to keep the humanity while you’re also kind of trying to do all the right things, and trying to follow the instructions, and remember that that’s how hiring decisions are still made, is very human based.

Meredith Metsker:

I love that. Yeah. Don’t outsource your humanity. Okay. Well, John, if people would like to connect with you, or learn more from you, where’s a good place for them to do that?

John Koelliker:

Yeah, LinkedIn, you can shoot me an email, my name at our website. And yeah, would love to support anyway. And yeah, thanks for having me. It’s been great.

Meredith Metsker:

I’ve been glad to have you. And for those who are watching, or listening, I’ll be sure to include a link to John’s LinkedIn profile, and his email in the show notes so you can go connect with him there if you want to. All right, John, at the end of every interview, I like to do this answer a question, leave a question thing. So, I’ll ask you a question our last guest left for you, and then you will leave a question for the next guest. So, our last guest was Aaron Peterson of the University of Connecticut, and he left this question for you. What was your first job, and what skill, or skills do you think you developed there that you still rely on for success?

John Koelliker:

My first job was at LinkedIn. I was in a rotational program in business operations, and product management. I learned a lot of things, and built some skills that I thought were going to be helpful, but I think the most important thing that I developed there was understanding how to influence people, and the importance of leadership, and that leadership in a world where there’s a lot of noise, there’s a lot going on, that leadership is still super valuable, and can be demonstrated by young people. And so I still lean on that today.

Meredith Metsker:

And you use LinkedIn a lot.

John Koelliker:

And I use LinkedIn. Yeah, I learned how to use LinkedIn.

Meredith Metsker:

That’s really cool. Well, what question would you like to leave for the next guest?

John Koelliker:

I wanted to build on my answer here by asking, how can we develop students into leaders while they’re in college?

Meredith Metsker:

Oh, I like that. I like that. I’m curious, what are your thoughts on that?

John Koelliker:

I mean, I have a lot of ideas. I think a lot of it’s about opportunity, right? Giving them opportunity to lead in clubs, giving them opportunity to… And schools I think do somewhat of a good job there. I think that a big part that we don’t do enough of is helping people understand what leadership looks like, and that it can look very different. And that’s where, because we have this model of leadership in our head that’s loud, or controlling, or I guess whatever it might be. And I think leadership can be quiet, influence doesn’t need formal authority. Leadership can be diligence. There can be a lot of things. So, I think part of it is helping students understand how to think independently, how to find their own kind of leadership voice, and style.

Meredith Metsker:

Okay. That’s really interesting. I like that. And again, yeah, it makes me think back to my marching band days. I was a squad leader, so we had to learn drill in groups of four. And so I was in charge of my group of four, and teaching everyone drill. And I did learn a lot about working with different personalities, and teaching a concept, and getting a group ready to go.

John Koelliker:

Yeah. It matters so much. And there’s little opportunities like that that are hard when it’s your first time doing it, and you have to wrangle people, and figure out what motivates them, but it’s a really important lesson.

Meredith Metsker:

All right. Well, John, that’s a great question. I’ll be excited to hear the next guest’s answer to that. And just thank you for joining me on the podcast today. It was a really fun conversation. I feel like we covered a lot of ground, and I think our audience will take a ton of value from this. So, just thank you so much again.

John Koelliker:

Thank you, Meredith. Good to be with you, and good luck to all of you students, and career center professionals. It’s a fun time out there.

Meredith Metsker:

You’re all doing great.

John Koelliker:

Keep it up. All right. Thank you, Meredith.