Reframing Experiential Learning in a World Without Enough Internships

Todd Schuster:

The first year experience and the day a student steps on campus, you don’t want to necessarily overwhelm the student that, “Hey, day one, you need to start your career journey.” I mean, you can ease them into it, but really prepping them for that internship application process for potentially junior, senior year by exposing them to things like Forage with job simulations, or some of the research projects, or co-ops that faculty can provide students upfront. And then it’s the on-campus roles, right? Finding opportunities to do on-campus roles, volunteering, being a part of clubs, finding ways to have leadership opportunities on campus can really set them up for success. And I think a lot of students will set up maybe a LinkedIn account once they’re graduating, but hey, get that LinkedIn account set up early, start networking, meeting with folks that way to really kickstart that process.

Meredith Metsker:

Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the Career Everywhere podcast. I’m your host, Meredith Metsker. And today, I am joined by Todd Schuster, the Senior Director and Head of Network Development at Forage. Thank you for joining me, Todd.

Todd Schuster:

I’m excited to be here. Looking forward to chatting all things internships.

Meredith Metsker:

Yeah, me too. On that note, I am excited to talk to you about how we can reframe experiential learning in this world we’re in without enough internships. I know this is super top of mind for a lot of our listeners as they work with students who want experience but are struggling to find internships. Or, for whatever reason, maybe the internships that are available just aren’t accessible to them. So I know this is something that you and the team at Forage think about constantly given the nature of your work. So I’m excited to pick your brain today and hear more about what you’re seeing in the market right now when it comes to experiential learning and internships, and then what your advice is for career services leaders who want to prepare students.

But before I get into my questions, Todd, is there anything else you’d like to add about yourself, your background, or your role there at Forage?

Todd Schuster:

Sure. Yeah. I’ve been with Forage for the past year. It’s been a great experience thus far. And my career started actually on campus. I’m here at the Colorado area. I live in Denver, and worked at University of Denver as an academic advisor, as a hall director at Northern Colorado, and had a lot of experiences working with students on campus. And then, over the second half of my career, moved more into the ed tech space, and working now at Forage. But Forage were designed to help students find jobs. That’s really our main mission with the Forage platform.

We work with our employer partners, we work with our university partners, but our primary focus is making sure students are set up for success. And that’s really given me a lot of excitement and motivation as I work in this new role. So yeah, really excited to be here, and thanks again for having me.

Meredith Metsker:

Yeah. Yeah. I always love hearing about people’s backgrounds, especially one like yours where you came from the academic advising side of things. So I imagine that gives you an interesting perspective on the job market, career development, and then how that all weaves in with the academic experience too.

Todd Schuster:

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I actually got to work with pre-med and pre-law students at University of Denver, which is an interesting population. They’re pretty set on their career path. And I would say, it tends to be a little bit more linear for students working in the law and pre-med space. I also worked with students that were undecided and weren’t sure in terms of which career path to go after. And so, I think both populations were great to work with. But that’s part of the purpose of Forage and something we offer as a space for students to test drive careers.

That’s one of the advantages of our simulations is that they’re like two to four hours in length, allows for students to see if this is the right path for me, the right career journey. It does help with actually landing a job through that process, but we also see a lot of success from students just looking at Forage as a way to see what’s the right fit for me.

Meredith Metsker:

Yeah. Yeah. And I know we’ll dig into that a little bit later, especially how folks can use the simulations like the ones of Forage to do some testing, see what they like, and maybe more importantly, what they don’t like. So we’ll get into that here in just a little bit. Before I get into the more specific questions about our topic today, I do want to kick us off with a question I ask all of our guests here on the podcast. And that’s, what does Career Everywhere mean to you?

Todd Schuster:

Yeah. So I would say Career Everywhere for me, especially with our work at Forage, is really moving the career process and the career journey to day one when a student steps on campus. I think when you and I may have been in college, it was something that we did spring semester of senior year, is head over to career center.

Meredith Metsker:

If at all. I didn’t go at all.

Todd Schuster:

Yeah. Get your resume set up and maybe start the process then, April, May of senior year. But I think part of the reason actually, and we’ll dig into this on the internship piece in terms of the demand for internships, is that I really think institutions are doing a better job of getting career readiness and the career topic in front of students from day one. We’re working with a lot of first year experience faculty who are using Forage in their curriculum with first year students. And so Career Everywhere for me is that full end-to-end journey for students where it doesn’t need to be something that you’re scrambling to do just as you’re leaving college.

Meredith Metsker:

Yeah, absolutely. We want it to be completely integrated with the whole experience from beginning to end.

Todd Schuster:

Yep, absolutely.

Meredith Metsker:

Cool. Well, now I would love to dig into our topic today, which is, again, about reframing experiential learning in this world without enough internships. So generally, I think we’re all seeing that internships are becoming increasingly competitive for a variety of reasons. But I think it would be helpful to start this conversation with some context and maybe a lay of the land. So from your perspective, Todd, and what you see through your work at Forage, what is the state of internships right now? What are students facing?

Todd Schuster:

Yeah, it’s interesting in that, I just mentioned the demand piece where more and more institutions are either requiring internships for students graduating, or maybe it’s just the business students where that requirement’s in place, but we’re also seeing this across arts and sciences and all the different disciplines where internships are becoming more of a expected part of the academic journey, which I think we all can agree is a good thing. And for Forage, we go the virtual angle with the virtual job simulations.

I think we all, though, are in agreement that nothing really can replace that in-person experience. I think internships remain a fantastic way for students to, again, test drive career, but also to get into the workplace to meet with other people. Those soft skills can get developed in those internship settings in terms of communication and working on a team. And so I think everyone’s on board still to this day that internships remain the high bar for career readiness. So the demand is going up with the amount of students that are going into the internship field.

From our conversations with our employer partners, they’re using Forage to help with that early talent pipeline for them. As far as some of our employer partners, they do offer internships and use Forage as a way of facilitating that. The AI part of it for sure has made an impact with less internships being offered because companies are using AI to do some of those entry level skills. But honestly, I think it’s still… I would put it more on the demand side than the supply. I think we are seeing some internships go down because of AI, we are seeing internships go down because of the current state of the economy, but really it’s the amount of students going out there to try to find an internship is just higher. And that’s really what we’re seeing from our conversations with our institutional partners, as well as employers that we work with.

Meredith Metsker:

Yeah. That’s a great point as far as the supply side of things. Because I think I was thinking of this increased interest in internships more from the employer perspective. Like they want new hires to have internship experience. But like you said, a lot of this is coming from higher ed institutions requiring students to have internships before they graduate.

Todd Schuster:

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. We saw a recent survey of college presidents and they were asked, “What priority level are you putting on experiential learning, or is it a priority for your students at your campus?” And I think that the most recent survey with Inside Higher Ed was like 70% of college presidents put it as a top priority. And so you’re seeing a lot of growth at the president level for strategic planning for universities to say all of our students are going to graduate with experiential learning. Now that’s not always internships. It could be co-ops and research and capstones and the Forage side of it, but you’re just seeing a lot more buy-in from the leadership side, not just career centers saying this is important, but entire institutions and leaders saying this is a part of our DNA as a school.

Meredith Metsker:

Yeah, absolutely. I’ve definitely seen that trend too. What I don’t always see and what I’m sure some of our listeners can relate to is actual budgetary support for those mandates. They say, “Every student needs to have an internship, but-“

Todd Schuster:

How do we do that?

Meredith Metsker:

“… who’s facilitating it? How are we paying for it?” All that good stuff.

Todd Schuster:

Yeah, absolutely. Sometimes, it’s more vision, right? And then what are the actual tools and approach to do that? And so that’s been part of the challenge for institutions, especially with the current state of the economy and pressures that schools are facing. It’s a big task to try to set up that infrastructure to allow for all of your students to graduate with that. It could be tough to do. But again, there’s other ways to provide experiential learning for your students. It doesn’t always have to be internships. I think we still… Ideally, that’s the best case scenario. But using other tools to get students that hands-on experience can still happen elsewhere.

Meredith Metsker:

Yeah, agreed. I know we’ve talked about that in a few episodes. Even when recently I talked with Eran Peterson from UConn, he facilitates and runs the Work+ program there at UConn. And so it’s really focusing on helping students get the most out of on-campus jobs, which a lot of students already have. So yeah. Like you said, there’s a lot more opportunities now for experiential learning, and I think there’s more openness to what that can entail.

Todd Schuster:

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I think most recruiters and folks hiring at the companies at least we work with are… I mean, part of the reason they even are working with Forage in the first place is because they’re open-minded to providing different pathways for students and finding more scalable and accessible tools for students to get their foot in the door at a company. And so, I think a majority of companies are becoming more open-minded to it doesn’t have to be an internship in order to get that interview. And I completely agree on the on-campus piece with what you’re seeing at UConn and other institutions is… I mentioned I was a hall director. And to this day, my role as a hall director, I think I learned more and had more responsibility in that role than any job I’ve had, trying to keep 300 college students alive.

Meredith Metsker:

I bet.

Todd Schuster:

The RA role, you’re sometimes a first responder, you’re dealing with crisis, you’re dealing with roommate remediation and conflict management. You have a ton of responsibility as an RA. And there’s so many skills you can learn in that sort of on-campus role that you can absolutely position well in an interview. And so that, I completely agree there’s a lot of opportunities on campus to get some of those hands-on skills, and being creative in terms of how you’re getting a variety of experiences on your resume can really help students find that first role.

Meredith Metsker:

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And I can imagine being an RA was an interesting experience for sure.

Todd Schuster:

Yeah.

Meredith Metsker:

So, you touched on this a little bit a few minutes ago, but I know you work with a lot of employers in your role there at Forage, and I know you mentioned there’s not necessarily as big of a dip in supply of internships as maybe it’s portrayed, but I think there is a little bit of a dip. I was seeing something from Handshake recently that they’ve had, I think, 16% fewer internships posted on their platform. So I’m just curious. In your conversations with employers, do they talk much about this pullback on intern hiring? Or just, yeah, what do you hear from them in terms of how they’re doing internships now or maybe how they’re responding to economic conditions in regards to internships?

Todd Schuster:

Yeah. I mean, I think that absolutely the AI piece, as I mentioned earlier, is playing a role there. I will say though that, in some cases, it says that we’re moving internships altogether and leveraging AI to do some of those administrative entry level tasks. But we’re also seeing some employer partners shifting the expectation of the internship. And instead of having interns doing more low level administrative tasks, they’re asked to do more skilled parts of the business and having additional responsibility, which I think we all agree is a good thing. There’s just a higher expectation of what they’re seeing out of the interns coming in.

And then, yes, it’s sometimes based on the industry and the space in terms of the amount of internships coming down. But again, I saw the Handshake data. I also saw something where it was, I think, eight million students seeking out three million internships was another article that came out. So absolutely the gap is there. And as I mentioned at the start of the call, the importance of internships that institutions are putting out there and just more of an expectation across the board, not just from institutions, but also from parents saying, “Hey, before you graduate, you need to do an internship.” You’re just seeing that being a much larger part of the educational journey and really causing more of a demand problem. While supply is going down a little bit, I think that’s part of what we’re seeing in the field.

Meredith Metsker:

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Even just thinking back to my college experience, I did have an internship, but I don’t remember it being as much of a focus then as it is now.

Todd Schuster:

Yeah.

Meredith Metsker:

But I was a journalism major, so I got an internship at the local paper, unpaid. I worked a lot of hours for no pay. But I learned a ton, so much about the industry, about just working with the public, doing interviews, just the production side of the paper. So, definitely invaluable experience.

Todd Schuster:

Yeah, absolutely. And again, the shift across higher ed where it’s not just business deans or business departments who are prioritizing internships, but you’re seeing it in arts and sciences, you’re seeing it in all the different fields and disciplines at a school where you have a dean who has psychology majors or philosophy majors or history majors, and they’re feeling the pressure from parents, from students coming in, from the leadership team at the university, that even for your typical arts and sciences majors, you’re expecting hands-on experience for them too and internship opportunities in that field.

And so that’s also part of the shift is that it’s not just business students seeking out internships, but it’s all majors across the board, which, again, good thing that it’s across the board. And we talked about the Career Everywhere piece, right? It’s becoming more present for all student backgrounds, but it’s difficult depending on your location and the amount of internships available to necessarily find one.

Meredith Metsker:

Right. Yeah. And knowing that there is this increasing competitiveness when it comes to landing an internship. I’m curious, what do you think students in career centers should be looking to instead? Or what does a meaningful experiential learning portfolio look like in 2026?

Todd Schuster:

Yeah. Again, the first year experience and the day a student steps on campus, you don’t want to necessarily overwhelm the student that, “Hey, day one, you need to start your career journey.” I mean, you can ease them into it. But really prepping them for that internship application process for potentially junior, senior year by exposing them to things like Forage with job simulations, or some of the research projects, or co-ops that faculty can provide students upfront. And then it’s the on-campus roles, right? Finding opportunities to do on-campus roles, volunteering, being a part of clubs, finding ways to have leadership opportunities on campus can really set them up for success.

And I think a lot of students will set up maybe a LinkedIn account once they’re graduating. But hey, get that LinkedIn account set up early. Start networking, meeting with folks that way to really kickstart that process. So I think, again, from day one. And we actually… Harrison on my team just went out to the first year experience conference in Seattle. University of South Carolina puts that on. And we went out there to talk to first year experience instructors and practitioners on what they’re doing with career in the classroom from a first year experience standpoint. And there’s a lot of momentum there.

But again, we’re seeing more and more career resources kickstarting that career process for first year students, which I think can really help with the internship process being less stressful and maybe finding students a way to not have to scramble to once they’re ready for that internship step.

Meredith Metsker:

Yeah. And on that note, like you were saying, there’s a lot that can be done before an internship even comes into play. So I know one of those things is, or that’s where Forage comes in with your virtual work experiences, those simulations. I’m curious, where in that process do you see Forage fitting in?

Todd Schuster:

Yeah. Yeah. So Forage was founded in 2017. We have over eight million students on the platform now across the globe. We have over 300 job simulations for students to choose from. And we work with our employer partners to create these simulations. So one thing we stand on is that our simulations are employer informed. So we work directly with Citibank, with Red Bull, to create the simulations hand-in-hand. So the tasks that students are doing in the job simulations are actual real world tasks they would do at that company and in that role.

And so that’s a huge advantage of Forage simulations and something that can be done online and at their own pace. And you mentioned at the start of the call, one of the benefits of Forage is finding the things they don’t want to do. So you can do a two-hour or three-hour simulation. And at the end of it, say, “Oh my gosh, this is not for me.” And we always say that’s a win, because it’s providing students more guidance on even the right internship to pursue, let alone your first role or first job in the market. There’s a little added pressure now to actually select the right internship even before you’re into the workspace.

So Forage is a great way for students to test drive careers. It’s really a sandbox for students to explore the right path for them. And then the other advantage of Forage is just the actual job application process because we work closely with our employer partners to position our candidates and our students that do a simulation to be set up well for interview or working at the companies that we work with. So that’s Forage in a nutshell. And the UConnect partnership with Forage has been awesome. UConnect and Forage, we’ve been working together the past, I believe, four years now, where UConnect is helping feature our job simulations within the UConnect platform. And so it’s been exciting to work with you all on that initiative and providing Forage in the career center space.

Meredith Metsker:

Yeah. Yeah, agreed. And if you’re listening and you are a UConnect customer and you don’t already have Forage integrated, you can do that. You can bring the work simulations right into your platform. So just reach out to your customer success manager if you want to figure out how to do that. And then for Todd, for folks who are listening who are not UConnect customers, is Forage, are the simulations free for their students? How would they access those?

Todd Schuster:

Yeah, that’s part of the model is that they’re completely free, open access simulations for our students. We did recently roll out a paid component of Forage with LMS integration. So that’s something that we’re working with institutions to implement within Canvas and Blackboard where you can now embed the simulations and the LMS itself. But for students, it’s always been free, and the plan is to continue the model that way. That’s part of the reason we have so many students on the platform is that they’re accessible, free and, again, relatively quick experiences. Two to four hours in length is the average time for our simulations. So it really provides students a way to get a sense of the career path that they want to go after.

Meredith Metsker:

Yeah. The career path, and then, like you said, also some of the tasks that they might expect to see in an internship or in an entry level role, like you said, sometimes it’s hard to understand what that entails unless you’re in-person doing it. But I imagine the simulations are at least a good introduction.

Todd Schuster:

Yeah. Absolutely. And all of our simulations are… We partner with the employers to actually create videos in the simulation itself. So most of our simulations, you’ll actually hear from someone who works in the role. They’ll frame the problem, they’ll frame the task, they’ll welcome the student to the simulation and give them a sense of the day-to-day at that company. And so that’s part of the way we make it engaging and really make it real that these are actual employees of these companies doing these tasks, and it makes it much more tangible for the student.

Meredith Metsker:

Yeah. Yeah, that’s really cool. And I’m curious, in your work with these employers as you’re working with them to create the simulations, as you’re trying to get them bought in on the concept, how are you finding that they view these alternative forms of experience, whether it’s the Forage simulations, beyond campus jobs, the leadership roles, like being an RA? Have you gotten any sense from employers on how they view those things now when they show up on a resume?

Todd Schuster:

Yeah. I mean, I really think it’s a combination of them all. And maybe that’s not the most popular answer that there’s one way of being the most competitive candidate. I think it depends on the role and the recruiter and the hiring manager of, did they work on-campus at one point, and have that as part of their background and know what you can actually learn the responsibilities you have in different roles. I think it really benefits the student to have a diverse set of experiences as you enter the career space and start the job application process because it really depends on the company and the actual hiring manager you get in front of, of whether they see your list of virtual job simulations, which you can easily add to your resume as an advantage, the research you’ve done with a faculty member that’s hands-on and in the field, an on-campus job that you’ve done, or you’ve had those soft skills and responsibilities, or just your traditional internship.

One thing we are hearing though from employer partners is the importance of soft skills more than ever. I think AI obviously is important to companies that students are coming in with a knowledge of how to use AI, of how to use it in a workplace. But more importantly, what we’re hearing from our employer partners are the soft skills, those NACE core competencies of critical thinking and leadership and communication. And just the ability to work well in an in-person setting with people, work through conflict resolution, things like that is more important than ever.

So finding experiences on campus and elsewhere where you can speak to that, that you’ve had exposure to those different skills, can step into a workplace and have those soft skills, I think, is more important than ever. Ensure the technical side is still part of it, but that is one thing in particular we’re hearing more and more from our employer partners we work with.

Meredith Metsker:

Okay. Yeah, that’s a great point. And I think that’s something our listeners, as they know, they can certainly influence, working with students on those soft skills through programming, through one-on-one appointments. But also, I was thinking this is also where career services really comes in is helping students translate those experiences into language employers understand. Because I think, again, even just drawing from my own college experience, I had campus leadership roles and lots of different activities I was involved in, but I didn’t understand how those could be valuable to my job search.

Todd Schuster:

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Meredith Metsker:

So I think… Yeah.

Todd Schuster:

Yeah. I mean, that really is something that has now become table stakes with your resume as a student, or for anybody at any level of their career, to be able to communicate exactly the skills you learned or gained in that role and how they would apply to this new position, and then practicing that in an interview setting to be able to explain how those soft skills were developed in that particular role is key. And to your point, on some of these on-campus roles or volunteer opportunities or roles you had on a club where you’re maybe managing a budget or working with other students to move them in the same direction, those are all soft skills that you’re developing as a student.

And sometimes, you might think, “Oh, do I even need to put that on my resume that seems so low level? I’m applying for a role at Bank of America or some large corporation. Are they even going to care about that?” I think that the key is to be able to translate that experience into those skills and show them in the interview process that it’s going to really apply well in the workspace. So I think putting everything on your resume is the best play, obviously showing that translation within that. And I agree, career centers and career advisors are the best resource for students to help brainstorm and work together to position that experience within the resume. So that’s a great opportunity for students to partner with career.

Meredith Metsker:

Agreed. So if you’re a student listening to this, go to your career center, make an appointment right now. And not in April or May of your senior year.

Todd Schuster:

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Meredith Metsker:

Ideally.

Todd Schuster:

[inaudible 00:31:10].

Meredith Metsker:

I mean, if you’re in that position, you do you. Cool. And still staying on the employer side of things. So you mentioned that the employers are working with you all to make these work experiences, so they clearly have some thoughts on what they would want someone in their talent pipeline to know about their organization, about the skills they’re looking for, about the roles. I’m curious, what are some trends or patterns you see from employers in terms of what they’re putting in these simulations? I know you mentioned some soft skills. Is there any other trends worth noting for our listeners?

Todd Schuster:

Yeah, it’s definitely a combination. We have a variety of simulations in the tech space. We have ones in GenAI. We have ones in software engineering and computer science. Those tend to be a little bit more advanced and technical. But we have quite a few simulations with our consulting companies like BCG. We also work with Bloomberg who has… One of the simulations I really enjoy is a client services simulation, which really is customer success, customer service, how to communicate well, how to manage conflict. So that’s the example of some of those soft skills. But part of the motivation for these companies in creating simulations that are real and actual workplace problems that you’ll see is not just with the early talent pipeline side of it, but also from a retention angle that they want new hires that come in to not be surprised and say, “Wait a second, this is not what I signed up for. This is not the right fit for me. I had no idea I was going to be asked to do X, Y, and Z in this role.”

And so that’s another benefit of our simulations is that they’re really trying to show the full breadth of what you could experience at the workplace and in that role, and also prevent surprises for the student and the candidate once they are on the job itself. So that’s another advantage of this model.

Meredith Metsker:

Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. I’m curious on the student side of things. What do you hear from students who use the simulations through Forage as part of their experiential learning portfolio? Is it helping them stand out when it comes to employers, especially if it’s maybe employers who are not participating in the simulations?

Todd Schuster:

Yeah. Well, one thing we track really closely is, we call it higher share, which is essentially our company partners will report out to us which students have actually landed a role at their company through the simulation process. And what we’re seeing is a 3X higher likelihood for a student who’s taking the time to do a simulation end-to-end actually laying in a role at these companies. And part of the reason you’re seeing that is our company partners are getting bombarded with AI-generated resumes or AI cover letters more than ever. And so, they really don’t have a problem with applicants. What they’re looking for are engaged candidates who are showing intent, who take the time to do a two, three hour simulation just shows the company, again, like we just talked about, a candidate that’s more well-informed. And if you do end up hiring this person, they’re going to come into the role in a better spot with better expectations.

We also allow for students to add their simulation to their resume in a really easy way. So once they complete the simulation, they just click a button and it could be added to your resume pretty quickly. It also could be uploaded up into LinkedIn. And so even if you’re not applying for a role at the company that you took the sim with, it’s great to add to your resume. We just talked about building this portfolio of experiences on your resume for the job application process, and Forage is a great way to do that where you can add three, four, five simulations in different fields, different companies, and get it added in.

And then yeah, I mentioned this earlier too with the sandbox nature of Forage, and that one thing that we don’t have as a model right now, we’re actually working on adding in some quiz and assessment features right now though for companies that want an added step in terms of a knowledge check for students. But for the most part, Forage is designed as a low pressure, no risk way for students to try out tasks with the employer without the employer seeing the exact tasks they just submitted. So it’s not where you have this pressure of, “If I do this task incorrectly, I’m going to close the door on this opportunity to work at this company.” So that’s one of the advantages of Forage and one of the things we hear from our students who use it is that it’s nice that they don’t feel this pressure of they’re in the interview itself or, “If I get this task wrong, I’m not going to be able to work here.” So it really helps with that exploration and prep piece as they get ready for their career.

Meredith Metsker:

Yeah. That’s a great call out. And it’s kind of like you were talking about earlier. It really sounds like the simulations are really a compliment. They can be a compliment to an in-person internship, to on-campus jobs, to student org leadership roles, to research, to everything else. It’s just like one more tool in the toolbox that students have to, like you said, test what they might be interested in, build a hypothesis, test it out, get some exposure to what companies are out there, what types of roles are out there, even everything from the skills required, to maybe the job titles that they’re hiring for. A lot of times, students just don’t know what they don’t know.

Todd Schuster:

Yeah.

Meredith Metsker:

So I appreciate that it’s a low pressure way to just explore a little bit.

Todd Schuster:

Yep. And I also don’t want to understate the importance of the in-person. We’re a huge, obviously, proponent of Forage and believe in its value for students and universities and our employer partners. But if you’re able to pair the virtual experiences and the scalable way in which you can get the job simulations through Forage with the in-person, that’s the best case scenario. And so ideally, it’s an in-person internship that you’re able to find. If it’s not that, it’s an on-campus role, it’s working with a faculty member on a research project, the co-op approach.

So I think, again, that combination is going to be the best case scenario for any student. Because especially since COVID, I think employers have put more emphasis on, “Have you worked in a space with other human beings, in-person, and have those soft skills?” And so if you come to an interview and the only thing on your resume is 10 Forage simulations, this coming from the Forage person, I would say that’s not setting yourself up for success. You really want to pair it and have it be a compliment to the in-person. So that’s, I think, best case scenario.

Meredith Metsker:

Yeah. Yeah. That’s a good call out for sure. So I guess, on that note, I’m curious, what advice would you give to career services leaders right now when it comes to guiding students through all these experiential learning options in the internship situation and just all of that?

Todd Schuster:

Yeah. One thing that’s been really top of mind for me in conversations we’re having with institutions right now is finding those faculty champions. And so, I think all the career folks listening to your podcast know this that sometimes, there’s that disconnect between the career center and what’s happening in the academic side and in the classroom. And the institutions that are going to be set up for success moving forward in long-term with experiential learning is where you can pair the classroom and the career center together. And so, my advice for career centers is finding those faculty champions who want career in the curriculum and providing opportunities for the career center to come speak to your students in the classroom.

Or as we talked about, having something like a Forage job simulation, or any sort of experience within the class itself as ideally a required assignment for students. Because for students that see career prep as optional, like we talked about, it could be that you don’t even go to the career center your senior year to actually kickstart that process. So embedding it in the classroom, finding those faculty champions that believe in career readiness and experiential learning, and working with them to create this end-to-end journey, I think, would be… My advice right now is providing more of a cohesive experience for students so it’s not just the career center’s role to have to kickstart that for them.

Meredith Metsker:

Yeah. I love that, because that’s one of the core tenets of Career Everywhere is shifting career services from being the sole provider of career development to the facilitator.

Todd Schuster:

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And it could be at the provost or dean level as well. But usually, it’s better when it’s grassroots. And the faculty are the ones that are going to have to actually integrate it into the curriculum and into the conversation with students. So that’s where I’ve seen the most success. Certainly, sometimes, you see it where, okay, you have a expectation from the provost level or dean level to have it in the classroom. But ideally, you’re finding faculty that believe in it and want to be a part of the student experience.

Meredith Metsker:

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Well, on the advice note, I’m curious, what advice or encouragement would you give to students who are navigating this ultra competitive internship and entry level job market?

Todd Schuster:

Yeah. I was thinking back on my journey. And we just talked about how Forage and other tools are out there to help with finding the right internship as a first try, or finding the right major, or finding the right role as you’re leaving college. But as we know, it’s not always linear. In grad school, I was on the MBA path and I switched to adult and higher education in grad school. My dad was a forest biology major and now he owns a shelving company. And there’s so many examples of that all over the place.

You talk to any friend, any family member, most people don’t have a linear career path. And they have shifts along the way. And so that would be my advice, is be open to change and shifting. You hear this all the time of… I worked with pre-med and pre-law students. At times, they would shift senior year, of like, “Actually, this isn’t for me.” And not having the student feel this sense of doom that, “Oh, I made the wrong choice and I’m behind now.” I think just normalizing career changers would be something that I would throw out there.

And I also worked in the bootcamp space for a couple years. So I ran operations with cybersecurity, coding, AI bootcamps. And so I worked with a ton of career changers in that space, adult learners who were shifting into a completely different technical space through taking a bootcamp. And so, just, I had a lot of passion for this topic of it’s okay to change. And it’s not the end of the world if you’re switching your major, switching your career, junior, senior year.

Meredith Metsker:

Yeah. And you’ll be in great company if you do, because most everyone has changed their major. Many people have changed their careers, like you said. Your dad’s journey reminds me of my mom’s a little bit. She got her degree in industrial engineering. Now she owns a hardwood lumber store.

Todd Schuster:

Yeah, there you go. Yeah. I love it. I love it.

Meredith Metsker:

You just never know.

Todd Schuster:

Yeah. You never know. And being open to change, I think, is a good thing. So yeah, I’m glad we’re on the same page there.

Meredith Metsker:

Yeah. All right. Well, Todd, before I start to wrap us up, is there anything else you would like to add? Anything we didn’t cover?

Todd Schuster:

No, I don’t think so. I mean, folks can certainly reach out to me on LinkedIn if you’d like to connect that way and learn more about Forage and what we offer there. Happy to do that. And yeah, just really appreciate, again, the opportunity to come and talk to you today on all things internships and Career Everywhere. It’s definitely a topic top of mind for us every day. And I’m really excited to continue this partnership with UConnect.

Meredith Metsker:

Yeah. Yeah, likewise. And for those who are watching or listening, I’ll be sure to include a link to Todd’s LinkedIn profile in the show notes so you can go and connect with him there. And then Todd, at the end of every interview, I like to do this answer a question, leave a question thing.

Todd Schuster:

Okay.

Meredith Metsker:

So I’ll ask you a question our last guest left for you. And then you will leave a question for the next guest. So our last guest was Nikki Pebbles of the City University of New York. And she left this question for you. What is one piece of career advice you used to believe in but don’t anymore?

Todd Schuster:

Yeah. I’ll probably double down on what I shared just earlier that, again, I started off as a business major with this expectation and maybe some pressure from my parents of, “Okay, I’m going to maybe take over their business someday and business is my track” and really this linear approach to it. And not to say that the academic advisors around me or career advisors around me were pressuring me to stay on that track. But that would be, I would say, the career advice that I would provide there is that, again, being willing to shift and change is okay.

And even for me, it was in grad school where I switched into higher ed, I think, was the right choice at the time. And so being open to change and shifting even late in the process, I think, is the piece of advice I would give to anyone in that position.

Meredith Metsker:

Okay, cool. And then what question would you like to leave for the next guest?

Todd Schuster:

Yeah. On that topic, I’ll continue that into, if you could share one detour you made in your career journey, what would it be? And if they didn’t make a detour in their career journey, it could be a life detour. But, like we talked about, most people have had some sort of detour in their career journey, so I’d love to hear from the next guest what that was.

Meredith Metsker:

That’s a good one. I like that one. I’ll be interested to hear the answer.

Todd Schuster:

Awesome.

Meredith Metsker:

So I feel like there’s usually a good story behind that.

Todd Schuster:

Yes, exactly.

Meredith Metsker:

Yeah. And I know, in your case, you shared a few of those detours already, but it sounds like you took some in your educational journey and your career.

Todd Schuster:

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it’s been nice to work with students in different stages of their journey. I’ve been in the higher ed space across my entire career, but working with traditional undergrad, working with adult learners, working in the online education space for a few years, and now with Forage. So it’s been nice to have some shifts along the way. But yeah, across the board though, it’s been consistent in helping students have successful educational journeys. And I’m excited to continue that with this role at Forage.

Meredith Metsker:

Yeah. Love that. I think it’s a good point in that even if there are detours, usually if you look hard enough, there’s still a through line through all of the different moves.

Todd Schuster:

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. It can be in different spaces and different industries, but typically, you’ll find something you’re passionate about. And like you said, there’s going to be ideally some consistencies from role to role.

Meredith Metsker:

Yep. That’s very true. Well, Todd, thank you so much for taking the time to join me on the podcast today. This was a fun conversation. I feel like we covered a lot. So I just really appreciate you taking the time to share your wisdom.

Todd Schuster:

Awesome. Thanks so much, Meredith. Really appreciate it.